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Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.04.30 13:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
knowsitall wrote:The main difference is that you can create copy runs faster than you can build. Therefore the volume of commodities that can be created via tech2 BPOs (via copies) is greater than it currently is.
NPC station speed copy facilities will not produce runs faster than current POS speed manufacturing facilities. Because the POS has a speed bonus (currently at least) and the NPC station does not.
The only way to increase production is to make more runs of copies, which is going to require a POS or an outpost. Both involving some risk.
If you decide to play it safe and keep your T2 BPO in an NPC station, you will be getting a smaller output than you currently can, with increased job costs and a small increase in margin generated by the waste changes.
There is a T2 BPO buff here, but it's only accessible to those that are prepared to take some risks. |
Bad Bobby
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Posted - 2014.05.04 04:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:You're overlooking the other changes like "Teams". I assure you, I'm not overlooking any of the incomming changes.
MailDeadDrop wrote:A team with a copy speed bonus will buff T2 BPO copy speed The current state of the Teams feature will give a maximum of 10% improvement to copy speed if you get the best possible narrow bonus to the exact type of BPO you are using. This will be accompanied by an additional cost for bringing in the team to your system and an additional cost for utilising the team on each appropriate job.
MailDeadDrop wrote:which combined with the overall speed changes The first draft of those changes suggested bringing copy times down to 6.25% under manufacturing times. Negative feedback was received and then it was indicated that this would have to be revised. The fanfest industry panel reinforced this by stating that T2 BPO copying speed would have to be toned back down to avoid all manner of problems.
MailDeadDrop wrote:will allow T2 BPO holders to produce more items at zero risk than they do presently. At present a T2 BPO holder that chooses to efficiently produce at zero risk to their BPO will use a single manufacturing slot in a POS array to produce their product. This will yield a 33% increase in yield (0.75 time) over a current station slot and give them control over slot availability and pricing.
With the first draft changes in place (the ones that will not be shipping, but are all we have to look at) that T2 BPO holder will copy their T2 BPO in station at basic speed, which can then be enhanced by implants (5% max), teams (10% max) and whatever fundamental copy time improvement CCP leave in (6.25% now, likely to be nothing at best on release). All of these bonuses come with a bundle of additional costs and problems.
Thereafter they must produce from the T2 copy in an NPC station or at a POS, both options involve more costs but neither result in increased productivity.
From a T2 BPO owner's perspective, that is not a buff. That is an unknown variance in productivity from current (likely negative, possibly very slightly positive) accompanied by a wide selection of costs, concerns and lost opportunities.
These changes are too complicated and too provisional for it to be worth arguing over. Plus discussing T2 BPOs in general has a habit of bringing out the worst in EVE players, worse even than discussing inflation with a side order of afk cloaking.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
439
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Posted - 2014.05.04 04:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:will allow T2 BPO holders to produce more items at zero risk than they do presently. At present a T2 BPO holder that chooses to efficiently produce at zero risk to their BPO will use a single manufacturing slot in a POS array to produce their product. This will yield a 33% increase in yield (0.75 time) over a current station slot and give them control over slot availability and pricing. With the first draft changes in place (the ones that will not be shipping, but are all we have to look at) that T2 BPO holder will copy their T2 BPO in station at basic speed, which can then be enhanced by implants (5% max), teams (10% max) and whatever fundamental copy time improvement CCP leave in (6.25% now, likely to be nothing at best on release). All of these bonuses come with a bundle of additional costs and problems.
I'm not sure how the maths actually shakes out on the first draft changes. I don't want to get too much into it, as it's rather pointless, but if it works like this:
0.95 x 0.90 x 0.9375 = 0.8015
Then it's a significant nerf when compared to this:
0.75 = 0.75
EDIT:
I think it works more like this:
0.75 (skill) x 0.95 (best implant) x 0.90 (best team) = 0.64125
0.80 (skill) x 0.96 (best implant) x 0.75 (POS array) = 0.576 |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
439
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Posted - 2014.05.08 17:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Just an FYI, T2 BPOs are going to die. A lot. True story.
Nothing new there then. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
440
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Posted - 2014.05.08 19:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
350125GO wrote:they're more of an isk sink than anything No, T2 BPOs are not an isk sink in the sense you mean. The isk just passes from player to player and doesn't get removed from the game.
350125GO wrote:and the game needs those to fight inflation. Yes, but fortunately we have enough isk sinks already that inflation isn't a problem. It also appears that CCP aren't shy of adding more.
350125GO wrote:What one Dev said is It must be said that the Devs have yet to prove themselves to be subject matter experts on these things.
350125GO wrote:I really wish the T2 BPOs are unfair crowd would speak with something other than emotion to try to prove their point. The T2 BPO supporting crowd are just as guilty of terrible posting.
I have to agree with you though that there is little good debate to be found on the subject of T2 BPOs. Most of what we do have has the air of monkeys throwing ***** at eachother.
The comments at fanfest are no indication that anything will happen. Just like anything else that is said at fanfest, only some of it will ever see the light of day. Moreso, these comments were vague, non-committal and without any reference to any timescale whatsoever.
Personally, I'd like to see both invention and T2 BPOs iterated upon. I don't feel either should be removed, but I feel both could and should be far better than they are. Of the two, I think invention is the worse feature with one of it's few merits being that it made T2 BPOs work better. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
446
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Posted - 2014.05.09 05:56:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mr LaboratoryRat wrote:About the T2 removal subject.... what if someone helds a 10 yr, eve life long collection of T2 bpo's. Valued a tens of trils... would that be fair?
I have yet to see a good argument for removing T2 BPOs. To me, the idea of removing something that almost works rather than correcting it's failings seems like idiocy.
In my mind all we need to resolve the actual issues are:
1. A simple means to distribute new, missing or destroyed T2 BPOs to active players through the invention mechanic, while keeping them strictly limited in number.
2. A continuation of the balancing effort so that any T2 products that are really unpopular get fixed. This leading to an increase in use and market volume such that their price gets set by invention rather than T2 BPOs.
3. An iteration on invention mechanics to make them less bad.
4. A willingness to politely ignore the complaints of people who are simply bad at the game and are choosing to blame anything other than themselves for their failings.
As far as I can gather, the only one that isn't already on the table is #1. So I would like to see that added to the agenda for the upcomming invention iteration.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
446
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Posted - 2014.05.09 14:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1. A simple means to distribute new, missing or destroyed T2 BPOs to active players through the invention mechanic, while keeping them strictly limited in number. Fixing T2 production issues by making *more* T2 BPOs is going to be a really hard sell. MDD
Feel free to tell me what those T2 production issues are. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
447
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Posted - 2014.05.09 16:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:1. A simple means to distribute new, missing or destroyed T2 BPOs to active players through the invention mechanic, while keeping them strictly limited in number. Fixing T2 production issues by making *more* T2 BPOs is going to be a really hard sell. Feel free to tell me what those T2 production issues are. I didn't mean to imply *I* thought there were problems. I thought that's what you were proposing to fix. So, what "actual issue" are you proposing to fix with that change? MDD
For each of those measures:
1. That the T2 BPO feature has lacked ongoing support from CCP and needs some work.
2. That some T2 stuff is bad.
3. That invention is bad.
4. That people complain a lot, because they are bad.
I must admit, that my measure for #4 isn't as comprehensive as I would like. |
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